Matthew 10:34: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

I am very happy that someone brought up this topic. The "extreme pacifist" view of God that was taught to me when I was a young Christian is actually one of the fundamental inconsistencies that drove me away from the faith. I was confused with the competing views of a Pacifist God with the reality of the God that is painted in the Bible. How could this Pacifist God reject violence & killing yet lead Israel through all those violent wars? I just didn't understand the inconsistencies that were brought before me. I now better grasp the reality of who our God is. He is a warrior, a King, he fights back, and yes, although he is a peacemaker full of an endless amount of love, in order for him to bring peace and justice, he has many many times taken up his sword with violence. Want proof? Read the book.

"'Safe?' said Mr. Beaver...'Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. but he's good. He's the King, I tell you.'"

--The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe

Love the topic guys! But, specifically, what is the question? owl90 is SO freakin' smart, it took me a while to digest what his original post meant, (as i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer) but I think this is the crux of it:

Is one who is not a pacifist living outside the will of God?

David, is that accurate? If so, then keep reading…if not, well, uh, then…I’ll be back!

As with so many debatable topics/thoughts/ideas, I think we have to ‘begin at the beginning’ and define (and subsequently agree) with what we mean when we use a particular word. I used thefreedictionary.com as a reference - here are the literal meanings, according to that source:

Peacemaker:
One that makes peace, especially by settling disputes

Pacifist:
1. One who believes that disputes between nations should and can be settled peacefully.
2a. one who Opposes war or violence as a means of resolving disputes.
2b. such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in military action

Another definition was:

Pacifist:
A person who is totally opposed to violence and refuses to take part in war

Certainly, this is a very, very, complex issue. Hitler (or fill in the name of any lunatical despot) was a terrible man that needed to be stopped. It’s tough for me to see a way to have that happen without bloodshed. Especially in our fallen world.

However, in the Ten Commandments, God said, “Thou Shall Not Kill’; and so, I think one who is not a pacifist would be living outside the will of God. So far as I know, the Commandments were not overruled by the blood of the New Covenant.

That said, and maybe more to the point, God also gave us nine other commandments that I (and maybe some of you too) fall short on every single day; thus living outside the will of God. Every day, I fall. Every freaking day…

And so, I am thankful every day, (every freaking day to be precise), for my Lord and Savior Jesus of Nazareth. Who frees me from my sins. Thanks be to God.

@jsb You got to that so much faster then me! The verse and the quote from Narnia were one's that had come to mind for me. You are right. I think we are taught to an extreme that God is a kind and loving God and they forget to throw in the "just" part of that verse.
   Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
    Luke 18:7
And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?
    2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you.
   All to often we forget these verses. He WILL pay back those who trouble us. I also found this verse.
    Revelation 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
He is going to make war. Uh...WOW. Wait...that isn't the God we are taught!

@bobkastl I think you are on the right track with comparing peacemaker and pacifist. However, I have to disagree with you. The Bible calls us to be peacemakers...not pacifists. We are to stand up for the widows and orphaned.
 I do believe that when it comes to ourselves we are to turn the other cheek. I am so bad about that....how often I seem to lash out at the slightest insult to myself and yet do I look out for others??

Anywho....those are my thoughts on the subject. Still doing some research. Maybe more to come later.

I think it's important to point out that in all these verses it is God who is taking the actions in question. Let us also note that God has rights that we do not so the questions I have about modern day pacifism concern whether or not we have the same right to proclaim war or even participate in violence as He does.

Bobkastl - I like that you bring up Hitler because of Bonhoeffer. What a treasure trove on the issue we have right there! To bring us all to the same page - Bonhoeffer was a brilliant Christian theologian and passionate believer who also happened to be German. He also happened to take part in a plot to assassinate Hitler, which almost succeeded, but was caught and thrown into a concentration camp where he died. It was his view that it was the right thing to stop evil and save lives, partly because it was so wrong to be able to do something and not.

I see in scripture that there seems to be a fine line between trusting God to be our defender and taking up arms for others. I also see that our own escheatological views will influence our views on war and violence in scripture. Do we see the biblical narrative as the restoration process or as our struggle until God redeems us? With the former we may see a new call for peace making as vital to that restoration process and with latter peace making as simple obedience to scripture and accept the need for war (since all will end in destruction anyway - the cycle is unbroken.) And frankly, what of the new covenant under Jesus Christ? What are the implications - do they imply what our dispensationalist brothers and sisters do that the old paradigm of the OT ways are null and void?

I have my suspicions as to what I think is right but I wont say that I know for sure. My current reading of the scripture leads me to the view that we are to be active participants in the restoration process of this world and Christ taught peace making as one of the most key and fundamental corner stones of doing so. I deplore violence and absolutely hate war, but I wont lie and tell you that I wouldn't kill a person in order to protect a small child or a loved one. Nor that I think I'd be wrong for doing so. To not act and allow someone to be killed is the same thing as killing them yourself. "He who knows what he ought to do and doesn't, sins." - James 3:9 (I think - you may have to check me on that one. It's in James.) I agree with Dancnfool on this one.


Whew, that's a lot of questions. I know I brought up a lot of stuff and didn't answer any of it. That was a bit on purpose as I would love to hear what you guys and gals think.

War, rumors of wars, and fighting have always been going on since the begining of time and will continue to go on until Christ returns. My personal feeling on war is that it's needed, if we didn't have war, how would we be living today? I think that we should be done with the war in Iraq, Hussian is dead already and their new government is in operation, how long are we gonna hold their hands?. I really think our Government knows where Obama is, I mean come on, we have satelittes with the abilities to zoom in so close that they can make out license plates or even tell what kind of a coin is laying on the ground and we supposedly cant find a 6 foot 8 inch guy...another "hot" topic I guess--sorry.

So back to this topic- lets see what the bible has to say about war-

* 2 Sam 22:35- He teaches my hands to make war, So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze

* Job 38:23- Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war.

* Prov. 20:18- Every purpose (plan) is established by counsel; By wise counsel wage war.

* Prov. 24:6- For by wise counsel you will wage your own war.

* Rev 12:7-12- The war in Heaven

* Rev 12: 13-17- The war on earth

I'm not against war as long there is a reason for it and a timeline for the end. Get in- get it done - rebuild and get out. As Larry says "git r done". It doesn't need to drag on and on. I think thats where the "wise counsel" would come in to play.

With out war we wouldn't have a need for peacemakers. Personally, I like peacemakers-- Matt. 5:9- Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God.

I think we need to realize that we are in a "spritual war" as christians, every day. Paul talks about this in Ephesians 6:10-17. In that aspect we are all soldiers of Christ fighting spiritual warfare.

I am so happy to see such a mature, respectful debate going on in this forum! He is proud of us, I am sure!

Dinomartino - I take it you're more of a just war theorist. I can respect that. I teeter between that and pacisifism quite a bit, actually. My questions concern the New Testament Covenant. You quote the OT quite a bit, as it talks about making war (mostly under the direction of God, which I think is quite vital) and the only mentionings of war in the NT is in the spiritual since, such as Revelation. What are the implications of living under the new covenant of Jesus Christ in relation to war?

@talowa-- hummm, you present a good question- a very good question. I'll do some thinking and research and let you know if I find anything.

I found a huge typo in my post last night. I reference "obama" that should be osama as in Binladen. Sorry.

Thanks for the excellent topic idea's everybody

I’m sorry that it has taken a while to reply to your question about war and the New Testament, it seems that the only “free” time I’ve lately to post anything on ZC is when I’m at work and then they have put a block all forums saying that they are classified as “chat”….grrrr. So I did some research at work and I’m posting this at home.

First, I’d just like to say that I believe that war should be a very last option, but if our government decides to go to war, I support that….to an extent. What happened on 9/11 deserved some kind of military action; we were attacked, physically, emotionally, and financially. The US is a “Super Power” but we really aren’t showing it buy continuing the war in Iraq as we are today. That’s my view and I know other people will view things differently, that’s what is great! On to what I have found out-

You are very right in saying that all over the Old Testament there is talk of war, there are references all over the place, but in the New Testament, Holy Cow! One has to really do some searching and there isn’t a whole lot that refers to ‘physical’ war, as nation against nation, it contains more ‘spiritual’ warfare. I’ll try to keep this as brief as possible, different versions of the Bible will read differently.

Luke 14:31- Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the coming against him with twenty thousand?

Matthew 24:6 & 7- (6) You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. (7) Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

2 Corinthians 10:3- For though we live in the world, we don’t wage war as the world does. I think this is saying that even though there are wars going on in the world, our war as Christians is against Satan and sin.

Something I’d like to add, Paul was friends with the Roman army, he had many dealings with them, and so many that they often escorted him. And I learned that his escorts were most likely those who were the best and most experienced combat centurions, similar to our Special Forces today. That’s why in Ephesians 6:10-17, where Paul is talking about putting the whole armor of God that he refers to the battle gear that the troops wore, Paul also used Roman military metaphors in numerous places of the books he wrote that are in the Bible. I found a whole “Exposition” of this as I was researching this subject, I found it very interesting.

So finally, yes, there are references to war in the New Testament just not as many as there are in the Old Testament.

Dinomartino - thank you for doing the ground work, here.

Luke 14:31 is part of a parable teaching Christ's followers to think ahead a little before following after Himself. It's imprudent to simply jump in without first considering what we're doing. We must be willing to give it all away, everything that has value including our possessions and our loved ones, before we follow after Christ.

Matthew 24 is much more interesting! In verses 6-7 we see Jesus acknowledging wars and rumors of wars, though not necessarily endorsing them. In this same way He acknowledges that there will be many who claim to be the Christ but are not. These are warnings of the coming of the end. Again we do not see Christ endorsing war or even calling out that we will have to take up arm and fight. Even more confusing, He says that the generation He was talking to would not pass away before seeing these things come to pass. Could we have seen a partial fulfillment in the first century or do we simply fail to understand it at all? I have no idea. The only argument that I can come up with from these verses for us, as Christians, taking up arms against a foe would be that if the events 2 Maccabees were a partial immediate fulfillment of the Daniel 9 passage. Again, I simply don't know enough to make any calls there.

2 Corinthians 10:3 outrightly talks of spiritual warfare, which you kindly pointed out is starkly different from physical warfare.

A change that I see from the OT to the NT is an absence of God endorsing a war or calling His people to march out to war. In the NT God either uses war as a picture of spiritual things or merely states that yes, wars will still happen but never gives His blessing for them. Now, this may or may not prove anything for our pacifism question. I think we'll find more answers in the verses talking about peace making.

And furthermore, does pacifism refer only to the physical and allow for spiritual violence or are the physical and spiritual aspects intertwined to the point of following the same rules?

I think your right about God endorsing war in the NT as it's written but lets remember that God instructed the writers of the Bible on what he wanted written so, God breathed and man written..hhuummm.

I also think to answer your question- I think pacifism would only refer to physical because were instructed how to fight the spiritual war when it occur's.

Anybody else have any suggestions?

What exactly are you implying about the NT writers there?

I'm not implying anything, the writers came from a number of occupations, doctor, lawyer, even a "hyped up" military man who loved the Roman army, but God saw something in them, he knew that they would listen and author a book or books for the Bible by listening to Him and writing what He said to them.

sorry, Guys, i still disagree. i see Christ on a battlefield and i don't see him with a gun, sword, or any weaponry. if we are to be like Christ, i think we wouldn't fight with other men.

the fight between good and evil is different, i suppose, but that is a spiritual battle. not sure how it will play out...but for sure it will be deadly.

i continue to say that we are 'living outside the will of God' when we sin for any reason, cheating, lying, lusting, coveting, i think this is no different when we wage war. and therefore, Christ is calling us to be pacifists..

Bobkastl, I am curious how you justify the fact that God waged wars according to the Bible. I'd love to hear your view. Good discussion guys, it's helping me formulate my own view....

those are certainly tough things to reconcile, jen. God waging war and all; I know what the OT says about those wars...but I don't have an answer for you other than to say, God’s ways are mysterious and I cannot say what God was thinking/doing with those wars…too big for my feeble understanding of God.

But here are some more ramblings on my stance against wars: background; my father is career air force, so I’m trying to stay unbiased.

i think every soul on this earth is one of God's children. i think God cares for and loves every person on this earth equally. Regardless of what you did when you were here. This may strike some of you as odd, but I think God loved Hitler and Mother Teresa the same. Remember Christ came for the least/lost/lonely, and I doubt there was anyone on this earth that was less than Hitler.

I think God's children are always on both sides of a conflict; regardless of which side feels they are 'justified'. And btw, just cuz we’re Americans doesn’t necessarily mean our side is always ‘justified’ in my opinion.

I think our loving God craves/desires/wants a relationship with every one of us; regardless of your background or ethnicity. i think God doesn't take sides on a conflict. a soldier serving their country (somewhere other than the US) is loved just as much as a soldier serving the US.

I think God cries when we kill each other.

Bob, I couldn't agree with you more about our God not loving one soldier more than any other, regardless of the sides. That's one of the things that has bothered me about the current war - our churches only pray for our soldiers, as if the Iraqi people were not as loved by our Father.

Here's the thing, in all three of the synoptic gospels Christ tells the disciples about the end times (Matt 24:14-25:13, Mark 13:1-37, and Luke 21:5-37). Though there are slight differences in the accounts, the basic time line follows:

*Jesus warns not to follow false teachers and of upcoming wars (Luke adds revolutions)
*Nations will rise against nations and some other stuff that relates to the four horses of the apocalypse which, Jesus says will be the beginning of the birth pains.
*Christians handed over to persecution and awful stuff happens to them.
*gospel will be preached to all the nations.
*more death and terror.
*warnings about the antichrist and signs.
*Jesus appears in the sky and sends His angels to gather the elect.


Nowhere in all this does Jesus ever mention taking up arms against our aggressors. In fact, I'd argue that the point of Christ telling us about these things was to encourage His people that no matter what evil things come our way God will prevail in the end. Even if those horrible things lead to lots of death, which they undoubtably will.

Matthew and Mark refer back to a Daniel 9 prophecy. Daniel had began noticing that Jeremiah's prophecies about Israel's return to exile was about to come to pass and so he prayed for God to do differently. An angel appeared to him and gave Daniel some encouraging (and confusing!) words about the end of days. I tend to follow the idea of the already/not yet eschatology, that is that most of the time prophecies see at least one partial fulfillment before the ultimate comes to pass. The partial fulfillment of the Daniel 9 passage (according to the time line given through the various sets of "sevens") is recorded in 1 and 2 Macabees. Antioch Epiphanies IV comes to town to subdue the Israelites and goes so far as to sacrifice a pig in the most holy of holies. Bold, right? Anyway, our Maccabean hero leads an army of Israelites into a battle against Antioch Ephiphanies IV - one that they should have definitely lost - and win. This, by the way, is why our Jewish friends celebrate Honnuka.

The reason I bring all this up is that I think it is very important to our discussion. In the partial fulfillment of Daniel's words - words that Jesus Christ Himself uses to refer to the future ultimate fulfillment of the end of days - included God's people taking up arms against others. And yet Jesus never mentions us doing so. In all fairness, Daniel doesn't either. But yet, God moved through warfare in the OT and suddenly it's supposed to end in the NT?

The question still remains - what has happened between the OT and the NT for pacifism to come into play? It was okay in the OT, under God's direction, to march into war against others. Yet when we meet Jesus in the NT He talks of turning the other cheek and even when He mentions the end of days He never says anything about our taking up arms to defend ourselves. Not even once! Even more bazaar, He destroys evil not by being the political leader but by allowing Himself to be lead to the cross and die for us. He admonishes Peter for going all zealot on one of the guards' ears.

I think that the most important question now becomes what happened at Christ's appearance? I believe that the Kingdom of God was inaugurated on earth at Christ's birth and the Law became whole. God's progressive plan to save humanity through history took a fantastic leap forward. Though the KOG remains only partially here (or fully here only in conflict with the Devil's reign...however you choose to look at it) it changes the way followers of God must behave.

Keep in mind that during Christ's sermon on the mount, Jesus took the OT laws and internalized them from being outward sins to sins committed within one's heart and mind. Everything took on an inward spiritual connotation with Christ. In that line, I have to admit that our pacifist friends have a profound point in taking the stand that all outward violence is wrong. They're right in saying that Jesus' own example was that of strong peace. He was by no means a wimp (cleansing of the temple, withering the fig tree, putting the pharisees in their place time and time again, willing dying for our sins...)

But what state matters? Obama had a point when he said that our state department would be in serious trouble if it followed the advice Jesus gave in Matthew 6-7. National governments do have an obligation to protect its people. And what about defending the defenseless? Can any of us say that we wouldn't use violence in defense of a child or loved one? Or simply an innocent person? And how do we end the conflict in Darfur, for example, without some brute force?

How do we reconcile the absence of Christ's teachings about war to the seemingly necessity for them? I know, more questions, but I'd really like to hear you guys' and gals' opinions on this.

Blessings!

  

I have a question that I've been pondering to post for a couple of days, some may consider it a crazy question, I'm sorry if you do but here it goes-

We know that the Bible is full of metaphors, especially, what seems all over the NT, but what if the spiritual war described could also be a metaphor for both physical and spiritual war? just asking.

Dinomartino - I think that's a brilliant question! And a very relevant one at that. When it comes to the OT I'd feel pretty comfortable saying that physical and spiritual warfare were indeed intertwined in some way. Not too sure about the NT so I'll have to do some digging there. Anyone else on here have any ideas?

Great topic! A lot of excellent points and views. I was thinking about this and just had some thoughts.
 
 Is the will of God the same as us keeping His law? In other words, would we be living outside His will or outside His law?
 
 I think "individual pacifism" is easier than, for lack of a better term, "global pacifism." As individuals, we can take a punch and be willing to accept another one without lifting a fist in retaliation. We could also leave the situation. It is not so easy when you are dealing with it on a global scale. For example, countries can't exactly flee from an aggressor. They fight back, if possible, to defend their culture, land, freedom, etc. So in this case force is met with similar force.
  Maybe what I am saying is that it is difficult to be a pacifist without having world peace. John 16:33 Jesus says, "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world"
  This shows me that peace is not of this world. Peace is found in Jesus Christ. Since the whole world doesn't know J.C. as their lord and savior there is inner trouble. Inner trouble leads to outward trouble. That is why you see violence, hate, wars, etc. The result of war is temporary peace. Unfortunately this seems to be cyclical as well as a needed event to achieve balance.
  I found this one even more interesting. Ephesians 2:14-15 - "For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations."
  Anyone have some thoughts on Eph. 2:14-15?
  Also, in Revelation 17:14 it reads, "They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings-and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
  I don't know exactly what this means, but it is possible that God will directly participate in this "war." If that were the case, then He would not be a pacifist. Once it is over their will be absolute peace though.
  Romans 15:33- "The God of peace be with you all. Amen." I looked long and hard to find somewhere in The Holy Bible that it states that God is a pacifist. (It is a large book so I need help on this.) I see peace though. That is not the same thing. I am not saying Jesus was not a pacifist, but I don't see it stated directly as I see "peace." Can anyone find a verse that would refute this?
 One more. Exodus 15:3- "The Lord is a warrior, the Lord is his name."

 My personal beliefs. We should try to live as Jesus (Christians), which seems to have pacifist undertones. However, I think God understands it when we defend ourselves and others. This understanding is why Jesus was sent to forgive our sins. We fall. Though we try to walk as Jesus, we simply cannot.
 *If there are things that I need to be corrected on, please do.
   I love a healthy debate. Thank you Friends. I pray these topics will bring us closer to God. Amen?